Purely a figment of your imagination

What amuses, annoys, concerns or otherwise interests me – Noodlemaz

Papa, Don’t Bleach


Here’s a child drinking it! Fun.

1. Sorry about the awful title

2. Watch this space!!

A new campaign is brewing, due to the goings on in this Crohn’s Disease discussion forum and the boy wonder that is Rhys Morgan.

Rhys explains everything here in this 19 minute video tweet, which I recommend you listen to, but he may be doing a shorter version soon for those with limited attention spans!

So for anyone who isn’t familiar with it, Crohn’s is a chronic inflammatory disease affecting the digestive tract. It’s not very well-understood at the moment, having a wide range of symptoms, severity and apparently significant environmental aspect.

Treatments generally aim to improve people’s quality of life – since Crohn’s currently cannot be cured.

As a result, there are many support networks for sufferers to share their experiences and help each other deal with the symptoms. This is commonplace for any chronic disease.

The issue Rhys (a Crohn’s patient himself) has picked up on centres around an ‘alternative treatment’ known as Miracle Mineral Solution (MMS). Looking around various sites it’s touted as a universal ‘detoxifier’, targeting bacteria and viruses alike, including HIV, malaria and even cancer. Edit: also being sold here in the UK.

In the forum we meet Chris, who explains that he’s having throat problems whilst taking LDN for his Crohn’s. Chris asks about MMS – could he take it to clear up his throat problems?

D Bergy tells him yes! Go ahead, but be careful with other medications.

MMS is not an approved treatment for anything, but I have found it to be one of the most effective methods of clearing unknown infections, and parasite removal in the intestinal tract

Starting to sound dodgy.

Give it some time and see what happens. The symptoms can be a good sign, but only if they are resolved at some point. The MMS wil likely clear it up, but you may have to swallow it to get to it.

Chris is advised to weather out negative side-effects and swallow the MMS.

it hurts too much to swallow even my own spit

Yet Chris is not advised to discontinue with MMS, but that it may be an allergic reaction to his LDN or some infection so ‘go slow’.

Rhys intervened to point out that the FDA has classified MMS as a health hazard because it’s an industrial bleach when made up as per the instructions.

Rhys tried to be careful with this, since the announcement was relatively recent and people may not have heard of it. Instead of being thanked he was personally and rudely attacked and has now been permanently banned from the site, despite being a fellow sufferer simply trying to warn people about this hazardous substance and call D Bergy out on giving dangerous medical advice online.

This site has acknowledged this warning yet still makes a lot of very dubious claims.

Everyone (surely?) knows you do not drink bleach!

This is very serious, considering the claims made about this product, due to the 1939 cancer act.

So, anyone suffering from Crohn’s or who knows people who do, please share the story and get the warnings about MMS around. This is no harmless patient choice, it is people really putting themselves at risk,  gargling and drinking industrial bleach, encouraged by people who are (obviously) not qualified medical practitioners.

Updates as they come.

Edit: Have a look at PenguinGalaxy‘s post for a bit more chemistry-based background.

Author: noodlemaz

I prefer to think of myself as a realist rather than a pessimist, but perhaps that's just optimistic. Honest, atheist, scientist, feminist.

13 thoughts on “Papa, Don’t Bleach

  1. You might want to check your science. There is NO chlorine reaction in the body with CLO2 :

    Ref: http://www.travmed.com/health_guide/ch5.htm

    Chlorine Dioxide (ClO2) Chlorine dioxide is an extremely effective disinfectant, which rapidly kills bacteria, viruses, and Giardia, and is also effective against Cryptosporidium. ClO2 also improves taste and odor, destroys sulfides, cyanides, and phenols, controls algae, and neutralizes iron and manganese ions. It is an effective biocide at concentrations as low as 0.1 ppm (parts per million) and over a wide pH range. It is ten times more soluble in water than chlorine, even in cold water. Unlike iodine, chlorine dioxide has no adverse effects on thyroid function. Chlorine dioxide is widely used by municipal water treatment facilities.

    The term “chlorine dioxide” is misleading because chlorine is not the active element. Chlorine dioxide is an oxidizing, not a chlorinating agent. ClO2 penetrates the cell wall and reacts with amino acids in the cytoplasm within the cell, killing the microorganism. The by-product of this reaction is chlorite, which is harmless to humans. Chlorine dioxide is available in both tablet (Micropur MP 1) and liquid (Pristine) preparations.

    3. Is chlorine dioxide safe?
    The Niagara Falls New York water treatment plant first used chlorine dioxide for drinking water disinfection in 1944. Currently, there are approximately 400 – 500 water treatment plants in the United States and over 1000 in Europe utilizing ClO2 to purify municipal drinking water systems. Numerous studies have shown chlorine dioxide, when used at the appropriate concentrations, has no adverse health effects, either by skin contact or ingestion.

    4. What’s the difference between chlorine and chlorine dioxide?
    While chlorine dioxide (ClO2) has chlorine in its name, chlorine dioxide’s chemistry is different from that of chlorine. Unlike the more common chlorine, chlorine dioxide, at appropriate concentrations, is non-mutagenic, non-carcinogenic, and relatively non-irritating. When ClO2 is added to water, it dissolves without ionizing. Or more specifically, when exposed to water, ClO2 does not release a chlorine atom to form hydrochloric acid as does chlorine, nor does it combine with organics to form chlorinated hydrocarbons, which are carcinogenic.

    One atom can make all the difference — just as hydrogen is an explosive gas, but when combined with oxygen becomes dihydrogen oxide – commonly known as water (H2O).

    • Interesting, John.
      You may, in fact, wish you check your science.

      ClO2 is a bleach that, while used at low concentrations in water purification, can easily damage human tissue at high enough concentrations. This is why the FDA (I guess you didn’t read the link, it’s here: http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/ucm220747.htm ) has warned about it, because making up MMS to the instructions, that is 28% NaClO2 plus ascorbic or acetic acid – produces more ClO2 than is safe to ingest.

      The very fact that people are complaining of burning throats (as one would expect if you’re gargling bleach ffs) should be warning enough.

      Just looking into some of the claims made about this stuff, they’re patently false. Will get onto that now and hope some chemists (as I haven’t done chemistry since university) can join in.
      However, if I poured this on my cells in the lab, I’m fairly sure they’d die. Which I would do, but I don’t want to give money to the people peddling this stuff.

    • From what I can tell from this document, http://www.epa.gov/ogwdw000/mdbp/pdf/alter/chapt_4.pdf , where pages 4-15 explains why ClO2 had biocidal properties, as you mention above, there is no reason why human (or any eukaryotic cells), would fare the same way as bacteria or viruses.

      After all, our cells and proteins also contain cysteine, tryptophan and tyrosine, and our cell membranes and lipids would also be affected. It seems to me to be an efficient but indiscriminate biocide.

  2. Hi John.

    You are right in stating that chlorine dioxide is an effective disinfectant, used in water purification, at low doses. However, the dose is important, and in this case it would appear that the FDA is of the opinion that the dose of ClO2 in MMS is dangerous.

    The other points seem to revolve around the fact that it is Cl- that is the problem, and not ClO2.

    However, ClO2 *is* toxic. The LD50 of ClO2 for human gingival fibroblasts is 0.16nm — ClO2 can kill human cells at fairly low concentrations — certainly lower than that found in MMS.

    ClO2 is also used to bleach wood pulp, and it is well documented that exposure to ClO2 amongst workers in pulp factories causes respiratory difficulties.

    Studies conducted on rats also suggest that ClO2 is a neurotoxin.

    The material safety data sheet for ClO2 is also worth a read.
    http://bit.ly/cizoFR [PDF]

    INGESTION: Not a normal route of exposure. Harmful if swallowed. Can cause irritation to mouth, esophagus, stomach, and mucous membranes.
    SKIN CONTACT: Corrosive. May cause redness and irritation.
    EYE CONTACT: Contact causes redness, irritation, pain, blurred vision, tearing, corneal injury and burns.
    INHALATION: Harmful if inhaled. Coughing, headaches, labored breathing, nausea, shortness of breath, pulmonary edema.
    May have effects on lungs, resulting in chronic bronchitis and permanent lung damage (with chronic exposure).

    Basically – whilst a low concentrations it is safe (eg – at levels found in treated water), at higher concentrations it is nasty stuff.

  3. Abel Pharmboy (Terra Sigilatta) covered the FDA warning on July 30


    and again at Science Based Medicine on August 6


    And John appears to be a troll.

  4. I had written a sharp and intelligent response, but then the screen crashed and when I came back, Xtaldave and LizDitz had written what I was trying to say. So rather than rewrite mine, why don’t you just reread theirs again.


  5. Pingback: Tweets that mention Papa, Don’t Bleach « Purely a figment of your imagination -- Topsy.com

  6. Oh look, Googling Mr Bergy brings up all sorts of things.
    Nice to see not everyone out there is gullible (as Rhys proves, anyways)

  7. hey. I have been investigating and trying to expose MMS and Jim Humble for about a year now. I have a website that presents a lot of facts about his fraud.


    Great work by the way, good to see some momentum against this charlatan.

  8. Pingback: Ask for Evidence – Miracle Cures | Purely a figment of your imagination

  9. Hello, Im someone looking into MMS and I like to thoroughly research things. I like to think of myself as very laterally minded and don’t tether myself to one perspective only. On that note i’m looking at claims from both sides very confused because ‘in general’ on a much larger perspective outside of this topic, it seems that quite often there is disagreement within the scientific community. Often people tout ‘science’ as the inarguable indisputable truth YET it seems that all ‘scientists’ seem to do is ‘argue’ back and fourth. SO after reading the links posted above to ‘mms debunked’ (which didn’t have any credible argument other than scoffing at someone thats been an advocate of MMS and they now believe in urine therapy) and reading the ‘aliceingalaxyland’ post I have questions. Could someone please explain to me (as someone that got a D in science) in terms I can understand:

    Most ‘pathogens’ and harmful microorganisms are ‘acidic’ in nature. Chlorine Dioxide is only able to disrupt ‘acidic’ structures rather than ‘alkaline’ (alkaline being the healthy structures) structures. I’ve not see a scientific rebuttal to this claim. Is there one and can anyone please explain the rebuttal? (genuinely interested).

    MMS advocates say that because of the ‘Dioxide’ element it’s not actually ‘bleach’ and changes in nature and its ‘oxidising’ (oxidising being a good thing for our bodies). Some of the scientific rebuttals have address the safe amount of consumption for ‘chlorine’ but do those safe amounts still apply when it’s Chlorine DIOXIDE because it’s different with the DIOXIDE element?. (again Im not too great with the science so please explain so I can understand).

    Thanks a million to anyone who takes the time to read this and explain to me as someone genuinely impartial to either side of the argument. It’s like watching a tennis match! I see one side serve there ‘science’ rebuttal and I’m thinking “oooh OK good point thats interesting” but then the other side has a ‘scientific’ rebuttal also that has me back sitting on the fence in the middle.

    • The reason scientists appear to disagree on things is that the media feels the need to give equal balance to both sides of the argument. Even though 99.9% of scientists believe that humans are causing global warming the media will find 1 person from each side for a TV show etc. This gives a warped perspective on a lot of issues.

      The poor representation of issues in this way is compounded as the scientists the media find against climate change often have no experience in climate change. They are no more an expert than anyone else.

      More importantly, if you get away from the controversial issues scientists are pretty much agreed on the majority of things. No one is going to say that gravity doesn’t exist or that salt isn’t made up of the elements of sodium and chlorine.

      With respect to the claim “microorganisms are ‘acidic’ in nature”. You won’t find a rebuttal because the questions doesn’t make any sense. An equivalent would be to say “all cars are less than zero”. Then ask for a scientific rebuttal, you can write one but no-one is going to bother because the statement doesn’t make sense. What does “less than zero” mean in this context? Same with bacteria, they can’t be acidic or alkali it makes no sense as concept.

      The best I can give you for a rebuttal is The Grand Prismatic spring in Yellowstone is alkali, the colours you seen in it are layers of bacteria growing happily. On the other hand pathogenic E. Coli survives your stomach acid just fine and goes on and kills you if the food isn’t well cooked, while H. pylori happily lives there causing stomach ulcers. Bacteria don’t care about acid or alkali. In fact, they care a lot less than your body does.

      With respect to chlorine dioxide, the simple answer is that it can’t tell the different from bacteria and human cells. It oxidises both, burning and killing them. Have you even seen an MMS advocate explain what the chemistry is that defines a bleach? Typically in chemistry it means an oxidising agent (and oxidising coloured compounds makes them white).

      There is nothing good about this. Oxidation is not good for the human body.

      Let me make this clear. Oxygen, the thing you breath is one of the most toxic chemicals your body encounters. The very thing you need to stay alive is killing you. Millenia of evolution keeps this in balance, with systems to fix the damage the oxygen causes. When plants first evolved and created oxygen in the earth’s atmosphere for the first time it was followed by a massive global extinction event of nearly all life on the surface of the planet.

      Another example of oxidising is burning. You wouldn’t put your hand in a fire, don’t drink bleach or oxidising compounds. Do no drink Chlorine dioxide.

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